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......refugees welcome no matter what?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Richard Wyeroski, Jun 22, 2016.

  1. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    The Washington Post (a failied newspaper) was purchased for a mere pittance by Jeff Bezos the owner of Amazon and a main contributor to the DNC Superpac campaign finance system. He uses it for nothing but a platform to to defame D.J. Trump, anything GOP, and reports outright lies on paper. This is the reason that Trump pulled their press credentials. I guarantee he will try to sell the paper after the elections. The DNC Superpac IS in tight with the global left wing elitist establishment media, BECAUSE it is backed, part, and parcel of it!
    "parroting CNN"? Nuff said. Says it all. o_O
     
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  2. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member VI

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    First, the people are naive. You have been out in the world and have developed a bigger picture of how it all works. Most Americans haven't been out of their own state. They don't have the worldly wisdom to know better. After the election, which is nothing more than a popularity contest for the biggest bull-s++ter anymore, the 'people' have little say in how Washington runs it's affairs. Why is this? It's because the US is NOT a democracy. It is a REPUBLIC. Besides, politicians love stupid people because they are easier to control.

    President Obama can also stop the immigration. For those that want America to remain great, America has to stay the same. America has to keep the same ideals it was born with. Flag-burning radical immigrants are NOT the way to keep it the same. Having done NGO work for decades, I understand your sentiments about helping persecuted persons. However, to help them, it is best to have a strong base to call upon. President Obama's policies have undermined many of the underpinnings to that strong base. Allowed to continue, America will end up with the same problems that much of Europe is experiencing now from immigrants that don't want to adopt their host country's ways. Allowed to continue, America will reach a tipping point of no return, it won't be a strong base anymore, and then it won't be able to help anyone anywhere.

    President Obama and his former Secretary of State Clinton thought it was best to run things from behind the scenes. As I mentioned above, after the election, the people are powerless. Hence the situation in Libya. And other places of hell. And the same s++t that Former President Clinton did to Haiti during his term.

    Mr. Trump's rise in politics is because he is echoing the voices of the group of people who can see the bravo sierra for what it is. The difference is that Mr. Trump's voice is heard while theirs is not. Let's hope he can muster enough pissed-off worldly people to counter the much greater group of naive sheeple who believe everything they watch on television.

    Way off topic, apologies for that.
     
  3. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    ....Interesting times ahead.....will the great silent majority speak and kick Hillary out once and for all.....Vice President Warren:eek:...will round out the ticket. If they get elected then all the left wing wackos will have to defend the country.....Right?.....
     
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  4. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Hillary will dump that 3 toed sloth Pocahontas as soon as she is done using her. I was wondering which one of them was wearing Monica's blue dress material the other day, lol.
     
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  5. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    .....hmmmm Trump on immigration and former President Clinton.....

     
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  6. Flytdeck

    Flytdeck Hangar Bronze Member VI

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    Exuma Guy: NOT off topic and very interesting. This thread started in this direction and is continuing though as mentioned before, what a shame degrading a great aviation forum with politics.

    There needs to be a clear, definitive line between the idea of illegal immigrants and refugees. The latter are individuals accepted by a country on the basis that their lives are in danger or they may be grievously mistreated normally buy political entities. Illegal immigrants are individuals who have entered the country though means not approved by the country to benefit themselves or others. These are two very different situations.

    A refugee is on probation once landed. They may be expelled (though time consuming and expensive, but that is how the system works) for many reasons. This has been taking place in Europe as the false refugees are arrested and deported. But think of the countless lives that have been saved by removing families from such a dangerous and volatile environment. Certainly there is a cultural clash that will have to be dealt with but strong leadership will point out that there is a "carrot and stick" to this matter. Become supportive of the had that feeds you or leave. Live by the rule of law or leave. Adopt the standards of your host country or leave. MOST will choose the opportunity to pursue a much better and secure life. The remainder will be deported or leave for a more malleable country. If Europe does not approach the issue quickly by "encouraging" integration, they face a strong backlash from their citizens toward both the government and new arrivals.

    North America will not face the same mass of immigrants due to logistics of transport. It is geographically isolated from the European migration and has the opportunity to filter those arriving on the continent. After their arrival, it is up to the citizens of the host country to help them understand the very different place they will now call their home and support their integration. The "VALUES" and benefits of living in a secure, free, and tolerant society is imperative.

    There is one large problem that does concern me though hesitant to bring up religion as it is such a divisive issue. Reading the Quran is as difficult as reading the Bible. Though the source beliefs of both religions are remarkably similar they diverge in drastic ways. Their primary "Prophets" approached life from very different directions. Faith has driven followers of both beliefs to violence on massive scales though economics rather than Christianity appears to be the motivating factor in recent conflicts. Those following Islamic beliefs are increasing, many adopting this faith in desperation as Islam clearly gives one "hope". Just as in the Bible, there are parts of the Quran that appear to encourage violence. This is not part of "radical" Islam, this is part of Islam itself. The Quran appears to encourage believers to think of those who are NOT Muslim as "evil" or "the enemy" (can't get a precise handle on the translation) though surprisingly, it does NOT mention Jihad. In the real world most Muslims accept and interact with others just as anyone else. The issue is whether an individual places their faith above the laws of their country.

    The point of the previous paragraph is the concern that Islam and non-Islam may have difficulties co-existing. Sharia rather than secular law is harsh (a necessity of the times as it was spawned in an unforgiving environment) and controlling. Though many approach Islam the same way that many approach Christianity (a passing acknowledgement rather than a deep faith), the fundamentalists on both sides are going to clash with horrendous consequences. "Islam and the Future of Tolerance: A Dialogue" by Sam Harris is an enlightening read. Europe will be the petri dish to observe how this evolves.

    Though much prefer discussing aviation, it is quite probable the above issues will have a much greater impact on our lives. Rather than divert forum energies in this direction, might it be better to move this to a more focussed webspace?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  7. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Your point is noble FD but, Don't forget, I live in the largest Islamic community outside the M.E., Dearborn, MI. Now I also grew up close enough to the same location. Yes, there are most who have assimilated (natural borns) and and the ones who have not, but been here for decades. The FBI does their C-182 (with phony LLC ownerships out of Virginia according to the FAA N registry) overflights of the largest Mosque outside the M.E. also (used to see them on FR24, but after much publicity have had themselves totally blocked) but I still see and hear them. The FBI also has the same flying over many other US cities also (all around 4-5000 ft), with equipment that fools cell phones into thinking it's the closest/strongest tower, for listening purposes, cameras, FLIR, etc. They just caught/broke up a large immigrant child smuggling ring in Southfield, MI about 4-5 months ago in this manner. I have many first hand stories based on experience living within the city that Henry Ford and the Christian ethic that this country was founded on, developed and now almost taken over by Muslims. Believe me, I do see/hear some potential radicals myself.

    Muslim Disney World my daughters call it.
    [​IMG]
    Did you know that the US govt for decades has given 'Arabs' if you may, ONLY, a pass on business taxes for 7 years. What those people do is pass on their business ownerships to relatives on paper in order to perpetuate that tax break? These owners buy drug addict's food stamp cards for 40 cents on the dollar, Their wives buy family groceries with these multiple cards/pin #s and then load them into their high end Mercedes/BMW/Cadillac SUVs. Yes they pay the price if caught. I have reported 2 license plate numbers/complicit store locations so far. Welcome to the real world FD.
    The problem is that with the influx of refugees who we have NO WAY of vetting properly. There is a very high probability in today's world if these people have bad apples within (as ISIS has vowed there would be) them as has proven out in Europe, Ottawa, and some in the US with a now higher propensity for radical violence. Don't get me wrong, I too have a heart, but not at the expense of America first. It has gotten to the point where the US can no longer financially support the costs (resources, jobs, etc). These people will try to use our own Constitution (through the approval of a King) as a shield against Americans, and even those who are home grown radicalized have families who are quiet and therefore complicit for it. I truly believe that Obama became a supposed Constitutional scholar for the sole purpose of finding ways around it.
    The main problem is, Islam needs a modern reformation. They have no central figure (similar to a Pope) to guide them. Iran also uses any of them in their ongoing proxy wars to stir without being blamed directly. Then we have a King who fakes being a Christian and lectures Christians as a sanctimonious Muslim, disguised as a Christian.
    Why can't countries with the resources, same vicinity, supposed values (if any) like Saudi Arabia and the like, take them in? In your idealistic fairy tale One World concept, why does Russia, Mexico, Cuba, etc NOT allow the same into their countries legally? The USA's resources are getting so taxed that it can no longer sustain as (The force of Good,Super Power' status) as we have enjoyed, earned, supported in the past, while our adversaries who have vowed to destroy us get stronger. Same with Great Britain. Don't forget Obama's formative years were indoctrinated with Islam. he ran a campaign based on something absolutely contrary to his actions/inactions/pro-Muslim attitude has proven out. The left wing elitist establishment's media got him elected twice as well as a limp d!cked opponent (Romney) whose son admitted after the 2012 election loss admitted publicly that his 'Dad' really didn't want to run anyway. What a farce Romney was/is. (and he calls Trump a phony?) The elitist establishment and their money are one in the same regardless of political party.
    The silent/not silent majority have begun to realize that the establishment doesn't really care what party is in power, as long as they get to keep their career, jobs, benefits, cronyism and the God of Money. This is why 16 other Republican candidates got handily dispatched by an outsider with the resources to take on the establishment and the love for HIS country. He did NOT need to run, all the others did/do to survive with their lifesstyles.
    Again, this is the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, Not the United States of the rest of the world. Come LEGALLY, period. We aren't gonna take it anymore! neither is Great Britain! Ask yourself this FD. As the biggest proponent against the 2nd Amendment, why is Obama the best gun salesman in the world?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  8. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member VI

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    Let's break it down even further- there are sub-groups of refugees. By far the greatest sub-group trying to get into the US are economic refugees. Their lives were not in jeopardy. With the drastic decline of America's middle class, Americans struggling from paycheck to paycheck, it's a kick in the teeth from American leaders to admit these refugees. It's not too terribly difficult to understand the resentment.

    Doesn't work that way. Once they have been legally admitted as refugees, it's nearly impossible to expel them even if they commit felony crimes. The host country (the US) doesn't do much to support integration other than offer some low budget social programs. These 'refugees' come to the US with the idea that they can wear expensive designer clothes and ride around in big fancy cars without having to hard because the streets are lined with gold. When the reality sets in that they will still be poor even though they are in 'the land of opportunity', resentment sets in. They set about to blame everyone except themselves (human nature everywhere). They blame their neighbors for holding them back even though their neighbors are in the same struggle. This scenario is prime for instigating extremism. I don't see it changing any time soon.

    Many of my European friends say the petri dish needs some penicillin. A few have given up. Many more have escape plans. The experiment failed.
     
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  9. Flytdeck

    Flytdeck Hangar Bronze Member VI

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    Not all have given up:

    Sometimes it’s the little things that are most telling. In Switzerland it has long been customary for students to shake the hands of their teachers at the beginning and end of the school day. It’s a sign of solidarity and mutual respect between teacher and pupil, one that is thought to encourage the right classroom atmosphere. Justice Minister Simonetta Sommaruga recently felt compelled to further explain that shaking hands was part of Swiss culture and daily life.

    And the reason she felt compelled to speak out about the handshake is that two Muslim brothers, aged 14 and 15, who have lived in Switzerland for several years (and thus are familiar with its mores), in the town of Therwil, near Basel, refused to shake the hands of their teacher, a woman, because, they claimed, this would violate Muslim teachings that contact with the opposite sex is allowed only with family members. At first the school authorities decided to avoid trouble, and initially granted the boys an exemption from having to shake the hand of any female teacher. But an uproar followed, as Mayor Reto Wolf explained to the BBC: “the community was unhappy with the decision taken by the school. In our culture and in our way of communication a handshake is normal and sends out respect for the other person, and this has to be brought [home] to the children in school.”

    Therwil’s Educational Department reversed the school’s decision, explaining in a statement on May 25 that the school’s exemption was lifted because “the public interest with respect to equality between men and women and the integration of foreigners significantly outweighs the freedom of religion.” It added that a teacher has the right to demand a handshake. Furthermore, if the students refused to shake hands again “the sanctions called for by law will be applied,” which included a possible fine of up to 5,000 dollars.

    This uproar in Switzerland, where many people were enraged at the original exemption granted to the Muslim boys, did not end after that exemption was itself overturned by the local Educational Department. The Swiss understood quite clearly that this was more than a little quarrel over handshakes; it was a fight over whether the Swiss would be masters in their own house, or whether they would be forced to yield, by the granting of special treatment, to the Islamic view of the proper relations between the sexes. It is one battle – small but to the Swiss significant – between o’erweening Muslim immigrants and the indigenous Swiss.
    Naturally, once the exemption was withdrawn, all hell broke loose among Muslims in Switzerland. The Islamic Central Council of Switzerland, instead of yielding quietly to the Swiss decision to uphold the handshaking custom, criticized the ruling in hysterical terms, claiming that the enforcement of the handshaking is “totalitarian” (!) because its intent is to “forbid religious people from meeting their obligations to God.” That, of course, was never the “intent” of the long-standing handshaking custom, which was a nearly-universal custom in Switzerland, and in schools had to do only with encouraging the right classroom atmosphere of mutual respect between instructor and pupil, of which the handshake was one aspect. The Swiss formulation of the problem – weighing competing claims — will be familiar to Americans versed in Constitutional adjudication. In this case “the public interest with respect to equality” of the sexes and the “integration of foreigners” (who are expected to adopt Swiss ways, not force the Swiss to exempt them from some of those ways) were weighed against the “religious obligations to God” of Muslims, and the former interests found to outweigh the latter.

    What this case shows is that even at the smallest and seemingly inconsequential level, Muslims are challenging the laws and customs of the Infidels among whom they have been allowed to settle. Each little victory, or defeat, will determine whether Muslims will truly integrate into a Western society or, instead, refashion that society to meet Muslim requirements. The handshake has been upheld and, what’s more, a stiff fine now will be imposed on those who continue to refuse to shake hands with a female teacher. This is a heartening sign of non-surrender by the Swiss. But the challenges of the Muslims within Europe to the laws and customs of the indigenes have no logical end and will not stop. And the greater the number of Muslims allowed to settle in Europe, the stronger and more frequent their challenges will be. They are attempting not to integrate, but rather to create, for now, a second, parallel society, and eventually, through sheer force of numbers from both migration and by outbreeding the Infidels, to fashion not a parallel society but one society — now dominated by Muslims.

    The Swiss handshaking dispute has received some, but not enough, press attention. Presumably, it’s deemed too inconsequential a matter to bother with. But the Swiss know better. And so should we.

    Country before religion.


    Not the refugees I have talked to. Their only hope is that they will not freeze (North America is so cold) and that they can live without the fear of being bombed, shelled, or shot. Anything else is a bonus.


    Few economic refugees among the Syrians other than all of their assets and businesses have been destroyed during the conflict. Most are homeless as those with homes still intact and outside areas of conflict normally elect to stay. Economic refugees should be filtered at point of origin.

    Apologies for the long post....
     
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  10. Flytdeck

    Flytdeck Hangar Bronze Member VI

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    Remember that the USA was created by a group of idealists or do American citizens believe they have outgrown the Declaration?

    USA is not the number one destination for refugees. Pakistan and Iran take in an enormous number. Arab states did not sign on with the 1951 Refugee Convention therefore it is hard to define how many actual "refugees" are in their countries. There are quite a number of Syrians that have moved to Saudi Arabia though it is a tenuous existence as they have no rights and may be deported.

    Russia will take refugees if they agree to follow their laws (wise requirement).

    The generosity and compassion of Western countries is what defines us (though Australia is struggling in this area). Do we really want to compare ourselves to Russia, Mexico, Cuba, and Saudi Arabia?
     
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  11. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Yes we do need to compare, lest the USA becomes so weak that those countries become more of a threat themselves to the USA than they already are. I agree with EG, AND why has it become almost impossible for the persecuted Christian refugees to be brought here. FACT! It is because of a Muslim 'King's' bias, pure and simple. He has hogtied/threatened the FBI in dealing with ANYTHING Muslim. Now he has instructed AG Lynch to 'train'/ indoctrinate/brainwash agents in a brand new bogus program of 'sensitivity training'. What a crock of sh!t. Even in Afghanistan, the US troops are not allowed to eradicate the Taliban if seen on sight, they can only engage if fired upon. What kind of 'stradgety' is that? In the fight against ISIS, or as the 'King' always refers to it as ISIL(he does this on purpose as the 'L' in ISIL stands for the past tense word "Levant" which is described as the geographical location of the M.E. WITHOUT Israel in it), he maintains 'containment' instead of destroying ISIS in another move of his never ending agenda of fast tracking future obligatory democrat voters (as well as hogtieing ICE at our southern border). The PEOPLE are TIRED of this traitorous projection. Hillary is the sister of this 'Satan Sultan'. Did you know that one of his secret side deals in the Iran deal (that the administration admits lying to the American people again!) that the US agrees to back Iran should Israel attack it? Yessiree, that is the truth! WTF is up with that?!!!!!
    After hurricane Katrina, the US govt bought 10,000s of 1,000s air conditioned trailers to house displaced Americans in FEMA camps. Most went unused but still there. (not to be confused with WWII internment camps). Why aren't these being used for assimilation camps for refugees at least instead of trying to assimilate FBI agents, ICE, NSA and etc to Muslims? Another hidden secret agenda? Right now the 'King' is flying in refugees (in the middle of the night when airports are empty) WITHOUT telling the state's Governors who, what, when, why and where they are! This 'King' is a mess!
    Uh oh, Black helicopters flying about here. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  12. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    FD this forum is for off topic subjects.....BTW the refugee influx is going to be full of Isis operatives bent on doing harm in the US....I for one would stop all refugees from these hot spots until we know what's going on.....hmmmm, where did I hear that statement ????

    There is an undeclared war going on and our current President is completely unaware of the dangers ahead.....I believe there will be an all out war in the Mideast very soon....it mirrors Europe of the thirties and the rise of nazism....
     
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  13. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    BTW aviation as we know it is going to change very soon because of these dangers....let a terrorist steal a light plane and watch the fallout .....I remain concerned and have oiled my guns and polished my bullets....;)
     
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  14. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    I agree whole heartedly Rich with one exception. I believe he is totally aware of the dangers ahead but is totally unqualified/rationally unable/immature to deal with avoiding it and passing it all on to the next guy. (kinda like leaving a public (transgender?) bathroom stall after wiping his sh!t all over its walls). He then hides on golf courses as his false safe zones, because the insane reality that he has created, shows no maturity enough to deal with the mess properly. His legacy will be 'If he ever plays in another sandbox again, Cats will cover him up'. o_O
     
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  15. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    We'd better! Could you imagine Oblahma as a SCJ, out of a secret 'Quid Pro Quo' arrangement with Hitlary? Imagine Kerry hiring Tiny Tim to sing "Tip Toe through the Tulips" in an all out offensive effort against ISIS? :eek:. No wonder James Taylor sang "You've Got a Friend" with his head completely down the whole time, after being hired by Kerry to serenade France after Oblahma's no show at the unity march in Paris and in the most embarrassing and disingenuous way ever conceived. I believe this was done on purpose also. o_O
     
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  16. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Country before religion? The USA arose out of a God given inalienable right to exist without being ruled from afar by another Monarchy. The USA was born based on Christian ethics with respect for others religions. Just don't come here with your religion and kill, maim and demand that your religion will rule.
     
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  17. Flytdeck

    Flytdeck Hangar Bronze Member VI

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    OK. Lets rephrase that. PEOPLE before religion. Christianity is inclusive and would certainly encourage refugees without prejudice no matter what race or religion (something in the Constitution about that too I seem to remember).

    Exactly. These individuals are an invaluable source of information about operations and should be identified in the entry interviews. Their fellow refugees have no love for them and would be willing to point officials in their direction.

    LL: Don't know a thing about the troop policies vs Taliban but like your proposal to temporarily house refugees in the Katrina recovery areas while they are processed. An interesting line of query might be to determine how many people would STAY in the USA once the conflict was over.
     
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  18. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    ....well as soon as a terrorist attack is done by an unvetted refugee(s), it will hit the fan. As I said, I strongly believe there is going to be a war in the Mid-East and it will be bad. Iran will be the cause and it is going to be them or us.....the new NAZISM is growing fast.....and the shoe will fall....
     
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  19. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Christianity doesn't try to use their own beliefs (constitution) against itself either. it is a religion of restoration, not condemnation. Please don't interpret us 'nationals' of being any other way, because It's not a blind religion either, besides we already heard the Trojan horse story. We don't need to repeat it. I agree, It would be utopian for the 'good' refugees to turn in the bad ones, but in most scenarios of late, that is not the case. In many cases of terror here, their 'innocent' family members were silent and knowing for quite some time before hand, which is the description of 'complicity' in the dictionary. Unfortunately and sometimes, the powers to be have to admit that we live in the real world. It is not WHAT they do that counts, rather it's HOW they do it. Blind stupidity will turn around and bite ya in the ass every time, especially when WE realize it, but are powerless to do anything about it except to VOTE with a CLEAR conscience.
    From what I hear also, the refugees would rather stay in their homelands, but be SAFE as well. Oblahma's lame 'containment' policy concerning ISIS does not allow for this, which would otherwise be guaranteed in a "destroy ISIS' policy instead. This is just one more subject that makes ALL Americans (and our allies) question Oblahma's REAL agenda or competence over and over again like never seen in the USA before.
    Oblahma's policy in Afghanistan as well, is that the US military in any capacity that you wish, is not an offensive strategy or rather a 'Stragedy' in inaction. The troops on the ground are ordered NOT to shoot first, rather only when they are attacked. Never Heard of winning a war in this manner. Oblahma needs to learn that one cannot move forward by patting himself on the back. Thank God the S.O.B. will be out of office relatively soon. He and the Clintons have diminished the Office of POTUS quite enough already. Please don't confuse their 'charisma' for common sense or good will. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
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  20. Flytdeck

    Flytdeck Hangar Bronze Member VI

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    Like the Crusades and the Inquisition? Not punting Christianity specifically but religions in general (just how many Scientologists are there and are they considered Christian?) Rather than restoring it seems to have been used more often as a tool to justify violence and influence masses. Certainly there is a place in society for faith and hope, but historically it has been so easily corrupted. If there are any gems that humanity should cherish it should be tolerance, compassion, and generosity (with a big dash of patience). That is for the LONG term. For the short term we have to deal with violence and hate. Much of this takes time and education and often harsh encouragement but here is an opportunity for America to step up and provide the leadership they have done so many times in the past. This time, people WANT to travel to the USA unlike a previous century where they were FORCED to come. If they are legitimate refugees, then encourage integration and education BUT do not let religious rites supersede civil rights and laws.

    Worked with the Germans refugees in WWII arriving in Britain and the USA. They were a major source for the FBI to find the spies and saboteurs even though Hoover initially tried to cover that up.
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    Regarding Obama, after watching his speech to the Canadian Parliament and the reviews, they seem to like him. :) Maybe we will see a GoBahma? Canadians are accepting many refugees.

    The early Israeli soldier policy was shoot first but they incurred too much collateral damage to make it politically acceptable. American troops have been directed to have local forces take the lead in any "encounters" and only actively participate if it appears backup is required. Possibly this is the policy you are referring to?
     

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