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Lion Air stands firm on cancelling $22 Billion in Boeing orders: FlightAware

Discussion in 'Latest Airline News' started by Lord Leighton, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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  2. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VI

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    I wonder if this isn't just a ploy by Lion Air to get money or a big price reduction from Boeing. :confused:
     
  3. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Somethin else is going on. How can you make those kind of decisions without the CVR? How can you threaten to cancel a deal when you don't have any funds anyway? :rolleyes: o_O
     
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  4. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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  5. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    It's a tactic.
    The goal is two-fold- better pricing, and force Boeing to accept a larger share of the blame for the crash.
     
  6. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    It happens often where a third world airlines does a big contract with a plane maker and then cancels.
     
  7. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ...just like the sweet deal on the new AF1 after Russia backed out of their contract. The "biggly one" made it a win-win for everyone!!
     
  8. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    It appears that Southwest also did not know about the system? I wonder if the same thing could have happened to them?

    It seems no one has any answers yet. Southwest's Union was in talks with Boeing.......?
     
  9. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ...both SWA and AA weren't aware of the system. Who knows if it could have happened to them. Even the best trained crews have been known to make errors in stressful situations. The law of primacy is a very powerful habit.

    I'm amazed that the "regulator" and manufacturer were so quick to submit corrective action if they weren't concerned about the probable cause.

    Automation is nice to have, they have quite a bit even in GA, but if the crew is left out of the loop, catastrophic things can happen. They say SMS makes it safer. If the information doesn't get to the end user, it doesn't matter what Safety Management System you have, the holes have already started to line up. Sometimes, luck is the only thing standing in the way of a crash!!!
     
  10. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    What if even Boeing didn't know about this system? It's happened before(MH-370)! They got blind sided again, and former national political figures may be involved. Hell, Me and EG can drink a couple Molson's on the beach and dive down to retrieve the CVR. :rolleyes: Why can't they? I bet they have it. The world is being fed some Ka Ka. It's happened before with(MH-370) ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  11. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    You would think that the two boxes were in close proximity. Now, the only reason they would hide it is if there was some sort of incompetence with the crew.

    I fail to understand how a manufacturer can fail to consider system failures, especially with automation systems. I can see the "regulator" failing to consider system failures since they continually demonstrate incompetence. I can see that the manufacturer and the "regulator" were so blinded by their cozy relationship, that they thought it was just another variant of the airframe.

    Now, looking at the Flight Standardization Board (FSB) report, it does mention the cutout switch. It is a category B training and checking item. That means all they have to do is verbally train and check the cutout switch knowledge with the crew.

    It appears that neither the US Carriers or the CMOs read and understood the FSB requirement on the system knowledge. If it is true that the crews weren't trained on the system, that means it wasn't in the training program or they short changed training and checking.

    So, for the US involvement, the manufacturer and the "regulator" share the responsibility in failing to consider system failures and system knowledge to operate the specific series of airframe. Furthermore, since aviation certification acceptance is worldwide, the failures in certification damages relationships with other regulating entities.

    Hopefully, for everyone's sake, the CVR is recovered.
     
  12. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    The Indonesia government is claiming they don't have funds to charter the search vessel.
    This is an obvious stall tactic because they have a good idea of what's on the tapes, and it ain't good.
    In reviewing the FDR print-out, and the FDR print-out from the previous flight with the previous crew,
    it's quite obvious that the accident crew did not respond to the abnormal situation appropriately.
    The previous crew ran 3 checklists. The last item on the last checklist is the stab trim cut-off switch.
    They proceeded to their destination using manual trim.
    The accident crew kept fighting for control until the stab ran full nose-down over-powering the elevator.
    Boeing shares some blame because the MCAS's new stall protection was not elevated in their training syllabus,
    but the stab trim run-away procedure works and has been required training for a long time.
    One crew performed correctly but the next didn't.
    Before jumping on Indonesia, which they rightly deserve given their accident rate,
    let us remember that there are dumb-asses in the pilot seats around the world.
     
  13. Kevin

    Kevin Hangar Bronze Member III

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    I wasn't aware that the previous flight crew ran the checklist down to the stab trim cut off switch. There was only a brief mention of the previous flight crew was able to "recover" the aircraft the day before by overriding the MCAS. So we have a checklist that includes the MCAS System, we have a missing CVR which there isn't a "budget" to recover it. yeah right. The thing that irks me if the FDR was found the CVR shouldn't be too far behind. Even in the Valuejet crash in the Everglades and AF 447 both were eventually recovered. My opinion in they don't want the CVR recovered. Again the blame game. I'm sure the CVR will turn around and place some blame on the pilots. So let's see, let's play Columbo here Boeing installs the MCAS into the B737Max but fails to mention it to it's customers, yet it is on a checklist. However not in their transition training so the pilots aren't aware of it and neither is the customer. And of course the unrecoverable CVR which I will gladly join LL in a Molson and take a dive down to retrieve. Sounds like to me inconsistent training, why does one flight crew know and not the other. Not enough consistency in Boeing notifying the new customers of the new system if both Southwest and American were unaware of the addition That's a big "oops sorry" on Boeing's part and that on the part of the FAA in the certification process. Looks like enough blame to go all the way around even to "pilot error". We all know the coziness that can exist between the "regulator" and the manufacturer going back to the DC-10's faulty rear cargo door design and even the Lockheed Electra design flaws. Did any of those airlines who flew those ship's threaten cancellation of future orders because of these errors? Not that I know of. Lion Air is looking for Boeing to give them a discount for their" inconvenience" with the 737Max, the CVR will remain on the ocean floor so we don't have the Lion Air pilots look bad and Lion Air can continue to blame Boeing and well the whole FAA certification thing will get fogged up with bureaucracy. So Rich is right it will finally be resolved a year from now and nobody will ever know what really happened. I hate these third world airline/American Manufacturer accidents. No one ever knows what really happens which threatens safety not only for U. S. Carriers but worldwide.
     
  14. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Interesting the NTSB has not commented. Usually, since this is a US manufactured aircraft the country involved welcomes The NTSB?

    It's beginning to look like this crew was not trained properly and the co-pilot was a warm body flaps and gear putter upper!

    There was some talk the crews worked long hours and received questionable training........
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  15. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ...what is remarkable about the accident flight is why did the crew extend the flaps to 5?? I agree with everyone, the CVR has to have some pretty critical evidence. Where is Paul Harvey when you need him??
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  16. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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  17. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VI

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    In the article I find one phrase rather puzzling, and that is where it says: “search a section of the sea floor under huge oil pipes”. Does that mean there are huge oil pipelines running through that area of the sea? o_O
     
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  18. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Probably on that flight!
     
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  19. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VI

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    :D:eek:
     
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  20. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    I read that Flaps extension silenced the stall warning, But I'm not that familiar with the type.
     

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