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Just as I suspected.... Lion Air crash.....

Discussion in 'Latest Airline Incidents' started by Exuma Guy, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    No, it doesn't, in normal situations. The only indication of trimming is the trim wheel moving slowly and silently, and the need to hold less side-stick. However, if there is a disagreement between flight control computers (ADIRU's usually), the A/P disconnects. The trim may or not work depending on the level of downgrade. Likewise, the auto-thrust may or may not disconnect depending on the level of downgrade. Paying attention in ground school is important as there are myriad levels of downgrade.

    The immediate action for unreliable airspeed is to maintain attitude, thrust, and configuration as appropriate.
    The immediate action for faulty overspeed protection is reach up and turn off any 2 of the 3 main computers (ADIRU's). I've trained both procedures more than once in the simulator.
    While faulty sensors can cause this, and will be the first suspect, it can also be caused by a mismatch of versions of the same model of ADR's (component of ADIRU). An overhauled replacement ADR costs about $500,000.

    The A-320 can be flown in manual reversion with only rudder, thrust, and horizontal stab trim provided the blue hydraulic system is pressurized (many larger Airbus don't have this option).

    The new B-737Max flight control scheme is partly Boeing's quest for a safer airplane, and partly a quest to appeal to Airbus customers.
    It's not working out very well for now....
     
  2. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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  3. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    I wonder what would happen if this crash occurred in the US and killed a plane load of US citizens. The ramifications would be enormous. Hugh law suits in the millions and the potential of Boeing being sued out of business.

    I have read that Boeing did not change the aircraft Manuels because the 737 Max has new higher powers engines. This changes the aerodynamics of the aircraft requiring extensive flight testing by the FAA. Both the FAA and Boeing did not do any additional testing and the MAX was certified immediately.

    I suppose the questions will be be did Boeing know the aircraft needed additional testing? Most importantly IMO did the FAA know that the aircraft required additional flight testing with the new system and engines?

    If the FAA did not know and made an error in approving the certification of 737 MAX, it would open up a can of worms!

    I know the FAA has been under going changes and field personnel are leaving and not being replaced. The new FAA management team is just that, management! The so called feet on the street inspectors are disappearing. The Agency is allowing the manufacturer to make more and more decisions as to their own certification.

    Russ has been warning us that FAA is getting rid of field personnel. They are creating a top heavy agency of managers.

    I would ask the question now. Is the FAA still capable of being a safety agency? Was the Certification of the 737 MAX just rubber stamped by the FAA?

    I believe an investigation is warranted by Congress and the Senate!

    After all they fly a lot and now the question is being asked "Is the 737 MAX safe!?
     
  4. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ...in reading the actions after the crash, the "regulator" was in CYA mode trying to shift the burden off on the manufacturer by issuing an emergency AD. How could two of the largest operators say that they were unaware of the procedure? Why would a union say that their members didn't need to know about the system and knew how to disengage a runaway trim?

    The new way of doing business between the "regulator" and the entity is all about collaboration. The management has dropped the need the know about anything and to use interdependence to ensure safety. Seem to remember the same thought process between the "regulator" and SWA that ended up in front of congress.

    Rich is right that the manufacturer is lucky that this crash didn't happen in the US or it wasn't a US operator. The lawsuits are already being talked about. The manufacturer cancelled a teleconference this morning. Wonder why??

    I'm sure that the "regulator" thought a 737 was a 737 and only has minor differences. With the new way of doing business, the "regulator" allowed the manufacturer to do whatever they want since it was just another 737. The "regulator" of old would have caught the difference and would have insisted that it be addressed.

    If the information was known, why didn't the operators and the inspectors overseeing that operator catch the difference?? So much for hiring knowledgeable inspectors!!
     
  5. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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  6. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    I wonder who will get blamed for this inside the FAA. The boys at 800 Indy now have to wonder if they have attracted the attention of the White House!

    If not I will be very happy to send a letter.

    I believe the FAA let down the flying public by improperly certifying the 737 Max. Now management has to blame it on someone!

    I remember a few years back when Airbus was having problems with the pitot static systems icing up. An AD was issued, but deferred to allow Aibus Industries to install the new system during routine maintenance. Then Flight 447 happened when the system iced up and an A330 crashed killing 228 people. Airbus lobbied the FAA and Congress. The aircraft design was repaired and life went on.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447


    The 737 is an excellent aircraft. Millions fly on them every year all over the world. The 737 Max has a problem that was missed by the manufacturer and the FAA. So what now!
     
  7. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ... probably someone in aircraft cert or AEG if anyone at all. It all depends on if the "regulator" gets named in the lawsuits. The systemic toxic culture within the "regulator's'' management will be covered up unless congress feels like having a hearing. The "regulator'' will tout the safety record of zero fatalities on US soil and blame the manufacturer for not saying anything about the trim system!!
     
  8. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    I think this is too big to be ignored, especially that some US pilot unions are involved now! I could imagine if this happened in the US.
    It would have gotten the immediate attention of the White House.
     
  9. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ... honestly, I see it going the way of the 787 battery issue. Especially, if the "regulator" feels that the manufacturer has made a comprehensive fix. The swamp has a way of covering up things. SAD!!
     
  10. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    You may be right Russ but 189 people died and American and Southwest operate these aircraft!

    The FAA may have finally been exposed with their rubber stamp!!
     
  11. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ... either way, the "regulator'' has failed! Either on the aircraft certification or the lack of oversight of the operator's training programs. The "regulator" can't even admit their lack of competency with the equipment they approve!! That was quite apparent with the language in the emergency AD!! AIR and AEG have been missing quite a bit lately!! So much for the management shuffling things around!
     
  12. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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  13. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Any one know if any Americans were on board?
     
  14. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VI

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    As far as I can find out, evidently not. The only source I could find that told anything about passenger nationalities, only said "two foreigners". Maybe someone else can research this better than I can.
     
  15. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    I'm Glad we know now. I won't fly on one until everyone is up to speed, so to speak, but how will we really be sure of that considering that they're already withholding info. After watching a few videos lately, I'm starting to wonder if Boeing itself even knew about this built in 'safeguard' from another vendor? Their response to this sounds like they maybe got blind sided and that's why they never trained pilots on it nor is it mentioned anywhere in the manual.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  16. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    My bad... Meant to type 'false stall indication' instead of 'overspeed protection'.
    Apologies for any confusion.
     
  17. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  18. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    I never seen so many comments on an accident like this before!

    Every opinion and "what happened" statements backed up by technical information.

    The investigation has barely begun. Let's give them a chance to figure it out.

    Imagine they put out one 737 every 18 hours. That's like 40 aircraft per month!

    It appears to be a percentage of FAA error, manufacturer error and pilot error!
    :(
     
  19. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ...it will be an interesting final report, that's for sure. The "regulator" has made so many mistakes the over the past few years. It will be interesting to see how the court divies the liability up. It certainly appears that the "regulator" missed their role in aviation safety!!
     
  20. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    The FAA is suppose to be the "gold standard" for the world. I soon learned that was not true because I learned when I was an inspector, that no one at the top really cares about anything other then their own agenda and what could they get away with.

    I was amazed at the incompetence of management. People in charge with out the experience or know how to do the job.

    I had a successful career in private industry. I traveled the world fixing problems and making a profit over my career for the companies I was employed by.

    When I joined the FAA in 1998 I had most of the flight ratings and Certiciates as well as an A&P. The mangers I encountered in the FAA were poor at their jobs. Wasting money did not matter. Not stopping accidents and fixing problems did not matter. I saw so much corruption That I knew the FAA was not for me. I tried for over four years to work for the FAA, However management had it in for me and wanted me out!

    I truly hope this accident causes a "real Congressional hearing and punishes those that are responsible for the needless deaths of 189 souls.

    I am not surprised that the FAA let an unairworthy aircraft be certified with a design error.

    The regulator will try and cover up the cause of this accident and even blame some poor schmoe in lower management for the crash.

    President Trump will be informed soon. I sent a letter directly to the White House and maybe it will get the proper attention and a real Congressional hearing will be conducted. I would like to remind Congress that they fly and rely on airlines everyday.

    This accident could have easily happened here and it is easily possible that they could have been on board this flight!
     
    Lord Leighton and Everett 757 like this.

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