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Just as I suspected.... Lion Air crash.....

Discussion in 'Latest Airline Incidents' started by Exuma Guy, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-close-issuing-safety-warning-011135931.html

    Boeing Co. is preparing to send a safety warning to operators of its new 737 Max jets in response to the investigation of last week’s fatal crash off the coast of Indonesia that left 189 dead, said a person familiar with the matter.
    The bulletin from Boeing will alert airlines that erroneous readings from a flight-monitoring system can cause the planes to abruptly dive, said the person, who asked not to be named discussing details of the manufacturer’s plans. Boeing will warn pilots to follow an existing procedure to handle the problem, the person said.

    The warning is based on preliminary findings from the accident involving a Lion Air jetliner, the person said. Under some circumstances, such as when pilots are manually flying, the Max jets will automatically try to push down the nose if they detect that an aerodynamic stall is possible, the person said.

    One of the critical ways a plane determines if a stall is imminent is a measurement known as angle of attack, which is a calculation of the angle at which the wind is passing over the wings.

    The Lion Air 737 Max 8 dove into the Java Sea on Oct. 29 minutes after takeoff, nosing downward so suddenly that it may have hit speeds of 600 miles an hour before slamming into the water. The pilots radioed a request to return to Jakarta to land, but never turned back toward the airport, according to Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee and flight-track data. The committee said they were dealing with an erroneous airspeed indication.

    Indonesia’s transport ministry has scheduled a briefing at 12:30 p.m. in Jakarta on Wednesday to share updated information on the Lion Air accident.

    It wasn’t immediately clear if the airspeed issue had any connection with the angle-of-attack matter. A spokesman for Chicago-based Boeing couldn’t immediately be reached for comment.

    In a statement Nov. 5, the Indonesian transportation-safety committee called on the U.S. National Transportation and Safety Board and Boeing “to take necessary steps to prevent similar incidents, especially on the Boeing 737 Max, which number 200 aircraft all over the world.” The committee is charged with finding the cause of the crash.

    While additional details of the bulletin aren’t known yet, the warning is the first concrete action to come out of the accident investigation. Boeing has an existing procedure that allows pilots to continue flying in the event that angle of attack readings become erroneous.

    The Chicago-based planemaker has delivered 219 Max, the latest and most advanced 737 jets, since the new models made their commercial debut last year with a Lion Air subsidiary. Boeing has more than 4,500 orders for the airliners, which feature larger engines, more aerodynamic wing and an upgraded cockpit with larger glass displays. The single-aisle family is Boeing’s biggest source of profit.

    Aircraft and engine manufacturers routinely send bulletins to operators noting safety measures and maintenance actions they should take, most of them relatively routine. But the urgency of a fatal accident can trigger a flurry of such notices.

    After an engine on a Southwest Airlines Co. plane fractured earlier this year over Pennsylvania, killing a passenger, CFM International Inc. issued multiple bulletins to operators of its CFM56-7B power plants.

    In addition, aviation regulators such as the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and the European Aviation Safety Agency often follow such actions by mandating that carriers follow the bulletins.

    Lion Air President Director Edward Sirait said the carrier hadn’t yet received any bulletins from Boeing.

    “We are still focusing on handling the families of the victims, including returning their remains to their home,” Sirait said by phone.

    “We will leave the investigation of the accident to KNKT,” he said, referring to the Indonesian transportation safety committee.

    Indonesia’s Garuda airlines said it hadn’t received any bulletins from Boeing, either.

    “We will tighten up our monitoring and inspections and wait for final report on the investigation,” Garuda Indonesia’s President Director I Gusti Ngurah Askhara Danadiputra wrote in a text message. “So far, there’s no disruption on the operation of our Max jet.”

    Pilots raise and lower the nose of Boeing jetliners by pushing and pulling on a yoke in the cockpit, which controls panels at the tail known as elevators. In addition, a system known as elevator trim can be changed to prompt nose-up or nose-down movement.

    The angle of attack readings are fed into a computer that in some cases will attempt to push down the nose using the elevator trim system. In the early days of the jet age, the elevator trim system was linked to several accidents. If pilots aren’t careful, they can cause severe nose-down trim settings that make it impossible to level a plane.

    Such an issue arose in 2016 at Rostov-on-Don Airport in Russia when a FlyDubai 737-800 nosed over and slammed into the runway at a steep angle, according to an interim report by Russian investigators. That case didn’t involve the angle-of-attack system. One of the pilots had trimmed the plane to push the nose down while trying to climb after aborting a landing, the report said. All 62 people aboard died.
     
  2. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    :eek:
     
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  3. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    The NG series of 737 did not have this feature.
    I suspect that Boeing did not put much emphasis on recovery with this emergency with the Max.
    Same type-rating and I suspect the differences training from this airline didn't cover it sufficiently.
    A-320 has had this feature since inception, but the recovery wasn't a memory item until about 3 years ago.
    MD-80 has this feature in the elevators and it's tested before every take-off.
    Metroliners have this feature. First go in the sim, I didn't hold the yoke tight enough for the test and the yoke slammed into the instruments causing a bit of a catastrophe.
     
  4. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    :p Lawn Darts.
     
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  5. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Such a sad accident. I wonder why the Captain did not disconnect the auto pilot and fly the aircraft by hand?

    The black box may have an answer?
     
  6. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    As EG elaborated, LionAir's training falls short. Besides, it's a third world airline.
     
  7. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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  8. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    The stall protection activates independent of the auto-pilot. It drives the horizontal stabilizer which is much more powerful than the pilots' elevator. The pilots can turn off the A/P, but it's still a lost battle if they don't shut off the auto-trim. The Airbus procedure is to turn off 2 of the 3 computers that provide flight envelope protection, and hand-fly the airplane. This happened twice in Australia with significant loss of altitude in one because the crew didn't know the procedure. That's when the procedure became a memory item.

    I had a similar situation in my Aztec back in the day. The trim ran away to the nose-up stop during the take-off roll and jammed. The plane jumped off the runway much sooner than I was expecting. It took both arms and a knee with the gear down and flaps half to keep level flight around the pattern and land. I had to fly a shallow glide path because I couldn't put the nose down any further. I was physically exhausted in the minutes it took to get around the pattern. After landing, one of the local pattern Nazi's came to chew my butt about not using the radio...

    The next day, the plane went to the avionics shop to put the A/P circuit breakers within easy reach of the pilot.
     
  9. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Love those pattern Nazi's!.....a handful emergency for sure. What is the procedure to shut the auto trim on the 737?
     
  10. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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  11. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    The FAA emergency AD is listed below. It basically says that if the pilot suspects the Angle of Attack indicator is suspected to be inaccurate the pilot should disconnect the Auto Trim system and trim the aircraft by hand......

    This aircraft pitched nose down by the AOA Auto Trim System because of erroneous commands from the AOA and the aircraft impacted the terrain.

    It appears the pilot did not know that the AOA was malfunctioning?

    The investigation begins.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MORE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    FAA Emergency AD
    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...25833e0070a070/$FILE/2018-23-51_Emergency.pdf
     
  12. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    Saw something today-
    B-737 Max pilots in the USA were not trained in this procedure during their differences training.
    So much for " If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going".....
     
  13. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VI

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    I see that Lion Air had another incident. A plane getting ready for takeoff crashed a wing into a pole on the way to the runway. :eek:
     
  14. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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  15. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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  16. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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  17. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    The AOA possibly failed giving erroneous readings and the Auto Trim pitched the aircraft down. It's possible the pilots did not know how to disconnect the auto trim system? Then the pilot could have manually trimmed the aircraft back to normal climb attitude. The aircraft was at 15,000 feet when the aircraft started to pitch down uncontrollably.

    So is it poor pilot training or a design flaw. The investigation has begun. The NTSB will have to go overseas and work with the Indonesisan Government. They will not be in charge of the investigation because the accident happened in a foreign country. The US responsibility is to investigate because the aircraft was made in the US.

    image.jpeg
     
  18. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    A point that should be brought out is that all accidents have percentages of blame. Pilot error is the highest with all accidents caused by pilot error at 75%. Maintnenance is 25 percent.
     
  19. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    ...the "regulator" flat out failed to evaluate the differences. They relied on collaboration with the manufacturer for the information. The stab trim is a major difference. The "regulator" should be held accountable for thieir cozy relationship with the manufacturer. Compliance philosophy be damn. SAD!!
     
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  20. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    .......interesting if another accident occurred because of runaway trim!??

    Everyone flying long enough has a story on a trim problems. The techology today is out of sight compared to just 10 years ago.

    I have never been a fan of computer controlled fly by wire aircraft that can ignore the pilot.......and say "NO!"

    image.jpeg
     
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