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International aircraft certification standards??

Discussion in 'FAA News, Opinion and Articles' started by Rotorruss, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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  2. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    Seems complacency was the major factor in this crash, not certification.
     
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  3. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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  4. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    Ahh, yes, the dreaded value of a human life vs the company bottom line. Nothing like watching someone burning alive to drive that point home. The company has known for years that their product is deficient, but the safety regulators say it meets minimum certification standards.

    It takes at least 10 years to change a rule. That is if it doesn't get squashed by lobbyist and special interest groups. Never fails, safety takes a back seat compared to the company wishes.
     
  5. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Unfortunately these days, watching someone burning alive provides more light to which they can count their $$$$$$ with.
     
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  6. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    Regardless whether pilots do stupid pet tricks, no one should die in a post crash fire after they survive the impact. Fuel cell integrity is why he burned and the NTSB can only make safety recommendations.

    The FAA needs to stand up for safety standards that foriegn manufacturers don't feel needed to be addressed. The FAA also allows new aircraft to be built based upon old standards. I was injured in an aircraft built in the 1990's based on 1960's standards. I am glad that I wasn't sitting in the back as the transmission came into the cabin.
     
  7. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    Hopefully, the widow and family can count some of that money too.
     
  8. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    If I may indulge you a little, while crashing does suck, as does burning alive, most of the foreign light aircraft certification standards that I know of were derived from the US's Part 23. Part 23 is being rewritten because certification, even with 1960's technology, is expensive. Will the rewrite make aviation safer? Or cheaper? Will the rewrite protect passengers from stupid pilots?

    Over the years, I've seen new technology improvements touted for fuel cells. If they worked, they would be used in racing. They aren't because they don't. NASCAR technology protects drivers from extremely hard impacts at most every race, but the fuel cells still rupture on occasion. Do you know something that NASCAR doesn't? What do you propose to improve fuel cell safety?
     
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  9. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    Great reference to NASCAR. That's a group that understands safety. In a perfect world, there would only be one level of safety. I agree that you can't prevent all fatalities.

    I will compare the civil Bell 206's and the military OH-58's fuel cell. The military, due to their environment, required self sealing fuel cells and disconnects to prevent fuel related fires. The civil version didn't require it. Now, in my opinion, just because you are not being shot at, doesn't mean that you don't need post crash fire protection. The rationale for the civil model was that the chances of crashing, since they don't fly in combat, was less and the weight penalty for self sealing tanks and connections was not warranted.

    It's sad, that there has been 3 rule making study's in the 1980s, 1990s and 2015 where deaths occurred by post crash fire, that where survivable impact crashes, could have been prevented by having better fuel cells.

    The company that runs the helicopter operations in that firey crash in the video above is going to retrofit the fuel cells in all their helicopters regardless of what the minimum certification rules say. This increase level of safety should have been made by the manufacturer, The regulatory agency should hold manufacturers to the higher standard, especially after the NTSB has made the safety recommendation for fuel cell improvements.

    No one should die from a post crash fire!!
     
  10. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    I like your ideas. About the self-sealing cells, I've heard about them but never worked on them. How big of a puncture can they withstand?
     
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  11. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    If I may, In military applications, up to .50 Cal and sometimes up to 20mm (.79 inch)cannon fire(depending on the atmospheric pressure differential during a hit), But civilian helicopters aren't prone to military punctures(unless flying over south side Chicago), So I think Russ might be referring to this similar auto racing technology BUT, Auto racing fuel tanks aren't put through the same pressurization cycles as A/C fuel tanks might. Race cars transported in 747Fs and the like, are flown with empty fuel tanks of course.
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  12. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    What I was trying to parallel was, the Ford Fusion in NASCAR isn't the same as the one on the streets. Both models have improved safely features based on research and regulations. That was a great video, LL.

    True, civil aircraft aren't getting shot at, but the crashworthiness should be the same. The B206 and OH-58 are both basically the same airframe.

    Manufacturers have known for a long time that their fuel cells are not sufficient eventhough they meet minimum certification standards. Even newly built aircraft only have to meet the standards that were approved during the original certification. I think it's outrageous that only 16% of the helicopter fleet meets current fuel cell standards. That would be like just over 4 out of 5 cars still on the road are from the 50's and 60's.

    https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=84168&omniRss=news_updatesAoc&cid=101_N_U
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  13. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    I agree. it shouldn't take too much relative expense and effort to upgrade A/C where these are easily applicable. How about some chopper owner get a few of these tanks as supplementals for testing and get an STC for them. Someone might scratch their heads and say "Why didn't we think of this?" :confused: ps: If A-10 Warthogs have similar technology, why can't civilian A/C?
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  14. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    The sad thing is, the manufacturer already has the fuel cell bladders. They didn't want to put them in the aircraft because it costs more and weighs more. It cuts into the manufacturers bottom line and cuts into the operators payload. Plus that would be a step above the minimum government certification standards.
     
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  15. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Well, in winged A/C, Fuel bladders are a costly replacement procedure. Dunno about choppers. Probably way easier I'd imagine.
     
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  16. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    Here is how the DOT assess the value of life when rules are made.
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member III

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    Oh, depending on the size and shape of the space, it can be a big chore with a 100 gallon bladder. That's why they should have done it when they put the thing together in the first place. Many more may be still alive today if they just put them in.
     
  18. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Wished I had all the stuff that my life expectancy portion shows. How'd I spend about $7 million so far? :po_O
     
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  19. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member V

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    That's a LOT of beer and cigarettes! :D

    I propose making airbags mandatory!!!
     
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  20. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Yeah and I coulda p!$$ propelled my way to Pluto too. Airbags don't stop fires and if they're made by Takata, it wouldn't matter anyways. ;) I heard the US Army wants them to be the next grenade contractor.
     
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