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Ethiopian 737 crash 157 killed

Discussion in 'Latest Airline Incidents' started by Richard Wyeroski, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Everett 757 and Lord Leighton like this.
  2. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VII

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    How sad......another one. :(
     
  3. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    This aircraft was a Beoing 737 MAX delivered to the airline back in November. It should be noted that another Boeing 737 MAX crashed killing all 189 aboard.

    The pilot radioed that he had unstable pitch control? Ironically the last crash was because of the pilot could not disconnect the auto pilot from the trim system and the aircraft plunged into the ocean?

    The death toll from these two crashes is 346! There maybe a connection here?

    The first crash was out of Jakarta Indonesia

    http://socialhangar.net/threads/lio...ta-takes-a-plunge-into-the-ocean-fr24.133262/

    The investigation begins

    NOTE
    Eight Americans were also killed and this warrants the NTSB to be involved in the investigation...
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  4. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Hey Guy, Russ could you look into this? It appears that the FAA was investigating a problem with the MAX. Since they okay'd the design it seems the MCAS system could be the culprit. With this being a second crash and now 346 people dead!!!!......it is going to hit the Fan. The first crash happened over 5 months ago but nothing was done by the FAA

    Here is a Seattle times article about the MCAS system. It seems well written..

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...flaw-on-boeings-737-max-after-lion-air-crash/

    I have to say I had not heard of the MCAS system. I believe no other aircraft but the MAX 737 has this system.....

    Thanks all
     
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  5. Kevin

    Kevin Hangar Bronze Member IV

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    Woke up to the news of another crash and that of another 737Max. The news said the pilot reported he had "Technical Issues" but no further details. Was it a pitch problem again? Can this be related to the Lion Air crash? Does Boeing have "Design Flaws" with the flight control systems on the 737Max because of its differences between previous 737 models? Is this a modern day DC-10? It's getting the same reputation. Another 157 lives lost. Again this is the worst part of my love of aviation, having to write my heart and prayers go out to the friends and families of the passengers and crew. I know investigators are cautious and thorough so nothing is overlooked in the possible cause of a crash. But if something is glaring at them and now we lost another 157 lives, an Airworthiness Directive might not be enough. I don't know how similar or different the two accidents are but 2 crashes in 5 months of the same aircraft type I believe warrants a step up on the investigation of control issues on the 737Max. May all involved RIP.
     
  6. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Kevin you are so right......Russ said management dropped the ball. I know what he means very well.

    All though it has been 17 years since I was forced out of the FAA, I remember very well when the FSDO management warned be about reporting with out speaking to them first!.....Yes I know problems are covered up. It's because of money. The cost ? There are 346 people dead. Eight are Americans. It could have happened here in the US. But it didn't! That I why little was done in the last five months since the last accident.

    As I said before, they are not the right people killed.....

    I often wonder how some management looks at their face in the mirror in the morning.....

    346 dead! Yes May they Rest in Peace.....
     
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  7. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    :( Another 737 Max and at pretty much the same parameters of flight as the LION Air plane. Too much of a coincidence that can't be ignored. I won't fly on one. Now, when I say I won't fly on a particular BOEING A/C, there's something wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  8. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member IV

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    Buckle up boys!! It's going to be interesting!! Someone will be quietly be transferred or retired!!
     
  9. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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  10. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Russ it looks like there is a design problem on this aircraft. I asked Guy if he knows anything else on this

    I think to many people have been killed to allow FAA to cover this up some one is going out the door.....

    MCAS system seems to be the problem but no one is talking on how this system was certified?
     
  11. Rotorruss

    Rotorruss Hangar Silver Member IV

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    If anything that congress should be investigating, this is one of them. It's s classic example of "slight of hand" and coziness between manufacturer and regulator. Count on this quietly being swept under the rug. Even the NTSB will stand mute on this.
     
  12. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VII

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    Just to add my two cents here. Something I’ve been mulling over with both of these crashes, is about the 737 airframe. It’s been very durable and dependable over the years. However it’s been stretched so many times beyond what it was really designed for in the first place. Now with the new Max and putting larger engines and because of the positioning of those engines the center of gravity for that airframe was changed. So Boeing has had to compensate for that with the MCAS. I think it would have been far better to come up with a completely new airframe. I understand that Boeing was trying to cut costs by using the old 737 airframe certificate. However in the long run it might have been far better to design a complete new airplane. The costs of lives lost and reputation is huge. Anyway that’s just my two cents.
     
  13. Lord Leighton

    Lord Leighton Hangar Gold Member I

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    Exactly!, And who's been pushing for a new 757 for so long? EVERYONE except the idyuts on Wall St. running Boeing for TOO long.
     
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  14. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VII

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    Exactly right.
     
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  15. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member VI

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    To my understanding, what is now the 757 replacement design was initiated quietly as a 737 replacement. Boeing executives were swayed to change the philosophy by the popularity of the new long-range A-321NEO. In doing so, they delayed the introduction of a 737 replacement. Not good business when the 737 is your core product.
     
  16. Everett 757

    Everett 757 Hangar Silver Member VII

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    I just read where China has grounded all their 737 MAX8’s until they receive assurances from the FAA and Boeing that the issue is resolved.
     
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  17. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member VI

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    The CG didn't change, but the longitudinal and lateral polar moments changed to the point that the stall characteristics were less stable. However, MCAS was also added for marketing reasons. The A-320 has it (different name but same idea). The information about MCAS wasn't hidden (it's in the manuals) but it wasn't marketed to many buyers (ie: established B-737 operators). If the buyer was an established Airbus operator, I'm sure MCAS would have been promoted by the sales department.

    The correct response from the pilots for an MCAS fault is a procedure already long-established and trained for- Run-away trim. The question for Lion Air investigators isn't much about collusion between Boeing and the FAA. The question is why 'that' crew failed to identify the problem and correct it. The short answer is that those pilots sucked. However, 'IF' (because it's too early to tell) this Ethiopian crew failed to identify a faulty MCAS problem same as the Lion Air crew, then a trend is established and that's a huge problem. Another however though, last week's B-767 crash was similar and it didn't have MCAS. Several B-737s have plowed into the earth before the MAX series came along too.
     
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  18. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    I remember it is at least 25 years ago when two 737 aircraft rolled on final and crashed into the earth? The crashes happened 6 months apart. The investigation revealed that the rudder actuator would hard over causing a loss of control.
     
  19. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member VI

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    I think I know what you are searching for. Many aircraft do have a similar system. The aircraft commands nose down trim when a stall is detected. Most Airbus's, all MD-80's, and even the little 19 seat Metroliners have this feature. They all include stalls in their respective training syllabus and also include training for false stall indications. From the article, here's the difference you want to know- "The fact that the plane’s nose could be automatically and repeatedly pushed down due to one false signal". The above mentioned aircraft have a limited amount of trim available to the stall recovery system. The MAX crash had no limit on the trim available to the stall recovery system. This is a significant difference.

    The MD-80 is an overgrown DC-9, as you know. The longitudinal and lateral moments were increased when the extra length was added, same as the 737MAX. The MD-80's stall recovery needed a little help that the DC-9 didn't need, same as the 737MAX. The elevator on the MD-80 is normally free-floating, as you know, but when the pilot pushes the yoke full-forward and holds it there, a hydraulic ram pushes the elevator directly (not the control tabs). This is not tied into the stall indication but is purely controlled by the position of the yoke. A false push is countered by normal trimming.

    The A-320, and most Airbus, trim nose down and can go to TOGA power when a stall is detected. The trimming is done slowly. In fact, the procedure for stall recovery is to NOT add power immediately because the underslung engines at a high angle of attack can cause the nose to pitch up more despite the nose down trimming and induce a secondary stall. Note: Maintaining altitude during stall recovery is NOT the primary consideration in most circumstances. The procedure for a false stall indication with nose down trimming is shut off 2 of the 3 air data computers. This is a memory item- no checklist needed.

    The Metroliner has a stick shaker and stick pusher. The pusher acts on the elevator, not the stabilizer. therefore trim is not affected. The procedure for a false stall indication is to over-ride the pusher with 60 pounds of pull until the pusher's switch can be shut-off. The over-ride is to be checked before every flight.
     
  20. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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