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Air France Flight 447's lessons - four years later

Discussion in 'Airline Talk & Discussion' started by FlyerKing17, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. FlyerKing17

    FlyerKing17 Administrator

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    Four years after Air France Flight 447 disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean, experts have pieced together what they believe happened on board the airliner that June evening.

    The detailed analysis of the reported cockpit transcripts point to a perfect storm of problems including weather, aircraft malfunction and pilot error. However, some say there was another contributing factor: the very design of the Airbus cockpit.

    CBS News aviation and safety expert Captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger explained that he believes that the disappearance would have been less likely to have happened if the plane had been a Boeing instead of an Airbus. This is because the control wheels are larger and more obvious.

    Sullenberger showed CBS News correspondent Mark Strassmann the difference with an Airbus simulator.

    More
     
  2. HenHouse

    HenHouse Hangar Bronze Member I

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    Bottom Line? The Airbus is not intuitive. Pilots know this. It's....like the article said...a different philosophy. One that I'm in complete opposition to.
     
  3. Exuma Guy

    Exuma Guy Hangar Silver Member VI

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    Disagree. F-16 and F-18 are the backbone of the US military's air supremacy, and both have sidesticks. What should be intuitive is stall recognition by all pilots.

    I have flown Boeing, Airbus, and McD. The part of Airbus's philosophy that needed to be changed, and has been changed slowly and quietly as a result of AF447 and QF32, is that the airplane should not be counted on to get pilots out of trouble.
     
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  4. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member II

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    It all goes back to the very Basics of flying, "Pitch and Power" and in this case, the F/O most likely got overly confused and failed to control the pitch of the airplane. I'd guess that the reason that he held the stick back the whole time was because he possibly may have been "frozen" from fear.

    There's no reason that a perfectly good airplane with all flight controls still available and two perfect engines producing thrust, should have done this. Even with failures of the autopilot and airspeed indicators, etc, they still would have "attitude" (ie: pitch) and "power" indications right in front of them. Via the normal instruments as well as a small set of "standby" instuments. Level the wings, stick the nose to about 1-2 degrees above the horizon symbol, shove the power all the way up and that pesky Stall Warning would have gone away. Basic airmanship.
     
  5. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Yes we learned a lot about the 447 crash. However as usual very little has been done about it!

    Airbus, in my opinion has a design flaw with the tail. In addition the side stick with no auto pilot, at high altitude, at night with all the alarms blasting away.....would be a terrible place to be...for sure!

    AIRNATION did a piece on the 447 a while back at got some pretty startling comments with documentation and videos to back it up!!!!

    Take a look
    http://airnation.net/2012/07/05/air-france-flight-447-crash-findings/

    So, why did a supposedly perfectly god running aircraft with all engines and working flight controls crash needlessly and kill everyone aboard?.....

    I thing the FAA/EASA know, but they do not want the public to know.....just my observation into what is a cover-up!

    Thanks,
     
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  6. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Gold Member I

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    I long ago forgot the specifics of the findings of the investigation into the crash of the Airbus A-320 in 1988 at the Habsheim, France airshow and Airbus ultimate crash into the forest after executing a low pass. But there were some findings of follow on investigations that posed questions about the aircraft systems and the computer involvement in the modification of pilot inputs during certain flight parameters. There is quite an interesting report, somewhat long and most assuredly, controversial for Airbus fans but may be of interest. It does include some interesting conspiracy theories which did garner some relevancy due to subsequent evidence. The linc is below. It is about 58 pages in length.

    http://www.crashdehabsheim.net/CRenglish phot.pdf
     
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  7. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member II

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    Plus, there was a brand new Air New Zealand A-320 that crashed in the Med on a test flight and let's not forget that the entire tail snapped off the American Airlines Aibus right after 9/11.
     
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  8. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    It gets interesting about Airbus and the FAA. The management at 800 indy back in 2001 was in the pocket of Airbus. No Ad's were ever issued until it was to obvious that there was problems with the tail.

    THEN AND ONLY THEN AN AD ON THE TAIL WAS ISSUED IN 2009.........!

    8 years after 587 crashed when the tail came off, FAA came out with an AD that means nothing... and will cost the minimum amount of dollars!!!
    SEE LINK: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FAAFinalizesADForAirbusRudders_207687-1.html

    Maybe someone would should ask why is the FAA apparently treating Airbus "DIFFERENTLY"

    It is because there are certain people that control the FAA and protect AIRBUS!

    They Squash AD's and there is controversy on all the Airbus accidents that link having the tail missing!!!!

    It will come out one day when these certain "PEOPLE" lose their grip and influence with FAA!

    The NTSB has said that the FAA AD's against Airbus are not effective and have not solved the problem.
    MORE: http://www.businessinsider.com/henr...now-focused-on-tail-snapping-off-again-2009-6

    I should state here that I have no use for the FAA and as a former Inspector (black sheep) I exposed FAA corruption for the last ten years.

    I have seem first hand how FAA operates and covers up it's failure through their PR department.

    The FAA, DOT/Inspector General, and the FBI have done very little to fix the FAA. Unfortunately the only way to fix the FAA is close it down and start over

    The NTSB continues to expose FAA incompetence.
     
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  9. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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  10. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member II

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    I did not know that the tail snapped off the Air NZ A-320. Wow. I've actually flown on an Air NZ A-320!

    I remember in the 1970s when Eastern Air Lines first got their A-300s. At the time, all their planes were shiny aluminum and blue, except for the brand new jets from France. They were painted a glossy grey and blue. Why? Because of all the composite (non-metal) panels all over the plane, including the tail.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    The really sad situation is that Airbus lobbies the FAA and NTSB management and keeps the costly AD's to a minimum ..It's a game....harass the government and they back off

    The FAA management has always treated Airbus differently. Some say it's because it is a foreign manufacturer and FAA has little oversight! That of course is not true.....if Boeing tails were failing EASA would ban the aircraft from European skies.

    The FAA on the other hand looks the other way. Again some say that FAA management is on the "TAKE", however this was before Congress cleaned out the DOT and FAA top management back in 2008.

    The Air France 447 crash is very fishy......the tail is floating far from the wreckage.....?

    Many believe Airbus has a tail design problem......I believe it does!

    FAA issued a very weak AD to prevent the tails from coming off....."THEY PUT REALLY BIG NICE LIGHTS IN FRONT OF THE PILOTS....WARNING THEM THAT THEY ARE PUSHING THE RUDDERS TO HARD!!!

    Time will tell.....
     
  12. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member II

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  13. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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  14. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member II

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    How soon before an A-380's tail snaps off? As tragic as a thought that may be........
     
  15. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    Gary

    The 380 has other problems. It is a million pound aircraft with wing cracking problems that has no permanent fix!

    The first 100 produced will have to eventually go back to the shop for major wing mods or......even new wings

    But that is another story
     
  16. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member II

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    Sounds like the original Electras!
     
  17. Edward Jeszka

    Edward Jeszka Hangar Gold Member I

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    I would hate to think that as the Electra was to suffer three losses due to design failures within the first few years after introduction into the airline world, so will the 380? I guess we will just have to wait and see.
     
  18. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    The next batch of A-380's coming out will have the new wing. It seems the aluminum used in the wing was too soft causing cracks in the carbon fiber ribs?

    I believe I have it right. If anyone know more please post it.

    It's funny, the FAA has stayed away from this problem. No AD... or anything was ever issued about this problem. Nothing from the NTSB either?.......VERY STRANGE??

    If the wings have to be replaced on the first 100 380's it will be very costly.........

    SEE AIRNATION STORY

    http://airnation.net/2012/10/30/air-france-compensation-a380-cracks/


    AND MORE>>>>>

    http://airnation.net/2012/06/11/a380-wing-repair-8-weeks/

    Thanks
     
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  19. Gary737

    Gary737 Hangar Silver Member II

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    Maybe the FAA can't get involved since no US carriers are flying the A-380s?
     
  20. Richard Wyeroski

    Richard Wyeroski Hangar Gold Member I

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    well, FAA could restrict the aircraft from US airspace. However the NTSB could and has asked FAA to file an AD against aircraft.
     
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